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Saturday's
Lagniappe
Interview
with the President of Venezuela,
Hugo Chávez Frías
EFE
President Higo Chavez during an TV interview
with Jose Vicente Rangel.
By:
José Vicente Rangel and Hugo Chavez Frías
Excerpt
from the transcription of Exclusive Interview with the President
of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, Hugo Chávez
Frías on
the program “José Vicente hoy.” Sunday, March
4, 2007
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Friends,
compatriots, everyone once again with you all in this program
“José Vicente Hoy (Today)” on Televén.
I return to journalism, return to investigative work, to analysis,
to the execution of honest, responsible, precise, and above
all truthful journalism. To service to what? In service to social
change, in service to what today is Venezuela, and also service
to the eternal values of liberty and democracy. I hope that
this program will again be a place for dialogue, for understanding
among Venezuelans, for polemic, for dignified polemic, to highlight
the important political, economic, and social issues of the
country.
Nothing
demonstrates that more than to begin this program with the President
of the Republic, Hugo Chávez Frías. Approximately
8 years and 3 months ago, or to be more exact, December 3, 1998,
48 hours before his electoral victory, I interviewed Hugo Chávez
Frías. It is very important to replay fragments from
that interview that reveal President Chavez’ coherence
of thought and that his actions conform to what he promised
Venezuelans. It is a good analysis and therefore permits us
to advance to my first interview on “José Vicente
Hoy.”
Video
__________________________
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
You
have had an extraordinarily rapid political career; in 6 years
you have gained prestige and now culminating in this presidential
campaign.
Candidate
Hugo Chávez
José
Vicente, I think, among other things, that of Ortega is becoming
evident here, the “Man and His Circumstances.” I
definitely believe that we were not wrong when we decided to
come out of our barracks with our dignity to propel that legitimate
rebellion of February 4, 1992, because the Hugo Chávez
of today is a product of all those circumstances, a product
of a legitimate military rebellion— painful for sure,
but legitimate. It was necessary.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Power for what?
What will you do with power?
President
Chávez
in the first place....
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Power
is squandered, corrupted, or ennobled. Surely you will tell
me: I will ennoble it; but what real possibility in this setting,
so dramatic, does Chávez have of carrying out real work
from a place of power.
President
Chávez
Yes, listen, in the first place the concept of power. You
made the reflection: Chávez is a man of power, a man
in search of power. Really, deep down, it’s not like that.
It’s not that Chávez is seeking out power. I don’t
believe that power is like this glass of water that you drink,
no. At some moment it appears, you drank it, no. Power must
be built up along the way. I have said it over the years, we
are constructing a new power as we go along and today we can
demonstrate it to the world openly. A power to construct, not
to destroy. Because the question was how and for what to use
power.
The
political power that we will assume within 48 hours as the new
government, the moral power that we have been building, the
intellectual power of a project for the future of the country,
all of this we will use, and not Hugo Chávez because
its not about one man exercising power. This power is dispersed
among thousands and thousands of Venezuelan citizens. All of
us together have to use this power to build a new political
system.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Hugo
Chávez comes from the ranks of the armed forces and within
the anti-military concept of some sectors of Venezuelan society,
all military men are potential dictators. Consequently Hugo
Chávez, who was an officer, is a potential dictator.
That is the synopsis they offer the country and the fact that
you have had a brilliant and rapid career—in 6 years you
are practically at the doors of power— some think this
reinforces that suspicion. Is Hugo Chávez a potential
dictator for Venezuela?
President
Chávez
Those
who say that all military people have a dictator, a tyrant inside,
some of them might say it out of ignorance, but without a doubt
those who have promoted this idea from the dirty-warfare laboratories
are my adversaries. Perhaps they forget that there have been
military men who have been examples of true democrats in governmental
positions— and active officers, not only retired ones.
One of them we mentioned just a few minutes ago General Isaías
Medina Angarita, who in addition to being an officer trained
in Gomez-ism, he came from Gomez-ism stock and nevertheless
some historians say that he was the most democratic president
of this century. General López Contreras also, to a lesser
degree than Medina, but still those two made a duo for democracy.
But let’s go to the past century, there we find examples
of military men who led true democracies or battles for democracy.
My
great grand father General Pedro Pérez Delgado went off
to the war against Gómez. He rose up against the tyrant.
So it is this manichaeist view that tries to associate military
with dictatorship and this is a lack of respect, [an insult]
to intelligence and to my brothers at arms, the Venezuelan military,
in particular to the new generations, without it being an insult
to the old generations, the teachers that we had. But the soldiers
of our generation were formed with a vision of humanism, of
respect for human rights, for democracy. And we are going to
demonstrate it. We are demonstrating it, but we are going to
demonstrate it in particular. God willing, President Hugo Chávez
Frías will contribute to the construction of an authentic
democracy. Dictatorship is not possible here in Venezuela...
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Here
we enter the terrain of the dilemmas that are used in publicity
against you. The dilemma that you represent dictatorship and
the others represent democracy, freedom of expression. That
is to say that programs such as this would be cancelled and
I would be left without a job under your government. In addition
there is the dilemma of private property that they defend and
you intend to infringe upon. They say that you are going to
take away their house, bicycle, refrigerator, all these things
and even women.
President
Chávez
[laughter]
God and the Virgin Mary forbid.
Journalist
José Vicente Range
Are you a man of dialogue?
President
Chávez
I
have always been and now I must be more than ever before. I
was educated in a school of leadership. It’s true that
in that military academy a scientific and humanistic effort
is made to shape leaders, and a true leader must be in contact
with his people and in this case a real statesman, José
Vicente, has to converse with the nation.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Finally,
Hugo, what haven’t you said over this long campaign that
you would like to say at this moment, your last TV appearance—only
48 hours before the vote…
President
Chávez
I have said many things over the years…I
will never forget the day that I came here straight from prison
and the first question you asked me was: Hugo where and when
did this all begin? I told you that it started August 8, 1971
when I entered the military academy. There everything began
for me.
Now
I am arriving—and this I believe I have not said, hopefully
it will satisfy your restlessness as an interviewer—I
am aware, I have been thinking recently that I, Hugo Chávez,
am entering the final phase of another period of my life. That
is how I feel. Just like on the morning of February 3. I was
aware that a stage of my life was coming to a close and I was
entering another. Sure, on that occasion I was full of uncertainty.
What would happen February 4? Nobody knew, including me.
Now
I am finishing another period of my life. I give thanks to God
and to the Venezuelans who have helped me so much in this period
of my life. I have endured solitude; I have been vilified; I
have been persecuted. But I have survived due to the love of
the people, the hope of the people, many thanks to the Venezuelan
people. And this sentiment, which blossoms forth from my soul,
I am going to demonstrate. Love is repaid with love. I am going
to embark on a new period of my life, God willing, as President
of Venezuela, to serve you all, to build up, along with you
all, the dignity of a people, the rebirth of a people. Perhaps
I haven’t ever said
that.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Thank
you very much and lots of luck.
End
of video
__________________________
Journalist José Vicente
Rangel
Good
day President.
President
Chávez
Good day José Vicente.
Welcome to your home…first of all I want to say that I
feel very happy that “José Vicente Hoy” has
appeared.
It survived 8 years of dictatorship. [laughter]
I truly congratulate you... Greetings to Anita and all the crew
at Televén.
I will try to watch it every Sunday.
I have always said that it was a reference for many years for
us patriotic soldiers many years ago. We learned a lot from
you all in the 80’s.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Look, 8 years and three months after that interview, a long
time, and for you, a man who likes quotes, I have Francis Bacon
one for you: Truth is the daughter of time. What truth has 8
plus years of governing revealed to you? Where is truth found?
President Chávez
I
will respond with a song: The truth of Venezuela is not found
in the Country Club, the truth is seen in the hills with their
people and their stillness... we have discovered many truths,
I think that if time is the master of truth, you can compare
me in this video that we just saw from December 3, 1998 and
today, the truth is there, the truth has sprung up. Let me recall
Chateaubriand, you gave me that great book “Mémoires
d'Outre-Tombe” Chateaubriand said, speaking of frontiersmen,
men who... I think we are frontiersmen, we are living on the
frontiers of a time, a time that is coming to an end, an era
winding up, and as Chateaubriand put it, with all the pain of
childbirth the truth is revealed. Right? So I believe that the
great truth of a new era has been revealed. We have not been
not wrong, José Vicente, to cite Gramsci as we have since
the 80’s. We were recalling the Caracazo [the February
1989 riots and subsequent repression] a couple days ago on Aló
Presidente, as well as in the streets. We all remembered. It
cannot be forgotten, that historic crisis that had no solution
within the previous paradigm. That has been demonstrated, proven.
Only the call for a constituent assembly could provide a peaceful
way out of the trap of an old era that refused to give way.
I think that is one of the most significant truths, an absolute
truth.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Nevertheless
there are aspects that cause concern. For example, you divide
your work into various periods. When I asked you from where
all this came, you told me that it began in 1971 when you entered
the military academy, this period ending on February 4 [1992].
The next period lasted until the electoral victory of December
6, 1998. After that there is a period, the way I see it, that
culminated on April 11, 2002, and then the following period
culminated on December 6 of last year. What will be the new
Chavez period?
President
Chávez
The
socialist period. And you with your vision and experience, your
experience of having lived on the inside over these 8 years,
right? You have classified these years into stages, which you
just delineated correctly. I share your judgment. Now, I could
add my own, very personal, criteria. Hugo Chávez has
spent 14 years, always with a team, because individual action
is not possible in politics, 14 years from 1977, ending when,
in the mountains of the east, while in an anti-subversive battalion
Hugo Chávez became a subversive. Five soldiers took an
oath creating the Bolivarian Liberation Army. Then I decided
to stay put and begin a dedicated internal revolutionary process.
I read a lot of Ché Guevara, Plejanov, and José
Vicente Rangel [laughter] and your speeches from when you were
a candidate, and many others, like Américo Martín.
What was the name of that book?
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
“Los peces gordos” (The Fat Fish).
President
Chávez
I
remember having read Diego Salazar “Después del
túnel” (After the Tunnel), I began to read Douglas
Bravo and his writings about universal shock. In the end, I
decided to go down that road, but it was 14 years, from 77 to
92, and from 92 to 2006, 14 more years, that encompasses all
that you mentioned. But I would perhaps extend it a bit more
in its prospects; this new era that is beginning—optimistically—14
years more, 2007 to 2021...
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Conclusion,
Hugo Chávez is a subversive within the realm of power.
President
Chávez
A subversive even here. I am a subversive
in
Miraflores; Venezuela
has a subversive in the Presidential Palace.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel Why?
President
Chávez
Because
I always think like a subversive.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
They
say that Chávez is more dangerous when he doesn’t
speak, when he withdraws than when he speaks.
President
Chávez
I
think that is true. When I am really busy in this daily dynamic,
one can get carried away and dragged down by it, often by the
bureaucracy, by government obligations. But, listen, in just
a few weeks after the December elections...
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
While others were on vacation, you were working.
President
Chávez
Vacations, hallacas, wine. I too ate a few hallacas, but
hey, I dedicated my time to studying, reading, conversing. I
consulted with you about some things, you remember, and well,
we put together the 5 engines and we kicked off the New Year
on the offensive. So those 5 engines are subversive engines.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
They
say that these 5 engines do not function without the super-engine
of Chávez.
President
Chávez
I refuse to believe that, but I try to play my role as the
fuel. But look, those engines hit the street yesterday. We are
at such a level of conscience and popular organization that
we only had to set them in motion. I tell you José Vicente
I thought it was going to be much more difficult or laborious...to
activate those engines, but no. “Moral y Luces”
(Morality and Enlightenment) hit the streets “in cascade”
–they invented that term while forming the brigades. Yesterday
Vice-President Jorge [Rodríguez Pérez] was in
Los Caobos when the explosion of Communal Power occurred, expressions
of which emerged everywhere.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
And this cascade, could it become a mudslide?
President
Chávez
…you are asking about a mudslide in the system, right?
Journalist,
José Vicente Rangel
It could cause some kind of chaos, no?
President
Chávez
…A general mudslide, chaos? Well, anything is possible
in this world. But I believe that our process at this point
has sufficient strength to resist an injection of energy such
as that, because it is itself an injection of energy, which
is why it occurred to me to call it an Explosion of Communal
Power. I believe that we have matured; 5 or 8 years ago it would
have been impossible to think of an explosion, of an aggressive
expansion of communal power. I have ample faith in what we are
achieving, and what we will achieve as an essential part of
the construction of a socialism that will not end in the Soviet
mudslide, for example, or the Eastern European mudslide, but
with the dream we all have of a world heading toward socialism.
I have ample faith in the popular strength and conscience, because
it comes accompanied by Moral y Luces, which is an injection
of conscience; it comes accompanied by constitutional reform,
enabling laws. I think a new moral force is emerging, that was
lacking before, in order to initiate these 14 years leading
to 2021. It is a great, indispensable force.
Journalist,
José Vicente Rangel
It
is obvious that certain people, not only government adversaries,
people of good intention, feel that the country’s freedom
could be in jeopardy, due to the sacrifice of that concept for
the development of a thorough social and political process.
President
Chávez
Well,
I believe that they have been saying this for nearly a decade
now, rounding off. Eight years since we spoke, and you talked
about that black and white Manichaeism that Chávez means
dictatorship and the negation of freedom. Well, it means assured
freedom… You lived it with me—the country lived
it too, but we lived in a personal way—the drama of the
coup, that terrorism, that if we, if you, if I, had authoritarian
inclinations, that was the occasion. They handed it to us on
a silver platter. You remember how many people told us that
we had to send a tank battalion to Plaza Francia? I remember
your expression—like they were cooking up something. Well,
yes, they were cooking themselves. We did not fall in the trap.
And we have had the opportunity 100 times, but we have never
decreed a suspension of constitutional guarantees. Everything
has been done in full freedom, even extreme freedom...
Journalist,
José Vicente Rangel
That’s true Hugo, absolutely true, I believe that your
government has withstood grave situations regarding stability
and public order, and you have never declared an emergency,
that’s true. So then, why the doubt in some sectors? Why
the concern. Why the anxiety? Is it possible the government
cannot totally dispel this doubt?
President
Chávez
I think the doubt must be looked at
by sectors, because there are sectors that never budge from
their position. Well, why? Because their own history expresses
their doubts, which are not doubts in truth…They know
full well that here this Palace they governed with authoritarianism
behind a mask of democracy during that era of puntofijismo [the
era between 1958 and 1998], persecutions, repression. I remember
your program that we recorded in Yare; it couldn’t be
aired; and the one we recorded in the Military Hospital.
Now,
there are sectors that doubt and continue doubting, due to the
perverse and continuous media campaign, that is not only limited
to the broadcasts of some television stations and the hundreds
of radio stations that daily, from 4 in the morning to midnight,
keep repeating “the tyranny, the dictatorship.”
They say: they are going to quit making cars, and what we have
done is facilitate the production of cars like never before
in Venezuela; they are going to take away housing, and in reality
we are making enormous efforts, last year we ran out of building
materials. But I believe that those doubts will slowly fade,
and we are called upon to make every effort to dispel them.
Journalist,
José Vicente Rangel
Conclusion:
freedom will not perish in the hands of Hugo Chávez.
President
Chávez
No,
not in the least, I believe freedom has flourished.
Journalist,
José Vicente Rangel
But
you have an acute sense of communication. You move like a fish
in the waters of the media realm. Some people view this as a
way to bury other opinions, to impose, from your place of power,
a certain media slant.
President
Chávez
No,
to foment the Battle of Ideas, taking a phrase from Fidel Castro,
the Battle of Ideas. Passionately I have joined the Battle of
Ideas…
I
am going to wrap up with this reflection on freedom. To clear
this up. Authority, which a government must have, should not
be confused with authoritarianism. It must have authority, the
most important being moral authority. I take great care of my
moral authority; it is the “jewel of the crown”
so to speak. Authority from all angles; not authoritarianism.
Likewise, liberty is not the same as license. For what? The
freedom the powerful want is to violate the weak. Jean-Jacques
Rousseau illustrated it well: “Between the weak and the
strong, it is freedom that oppresses and the law that liberates”
That is, freedom lies within the framework of law.
Journalist,
José Vicente Rangel
In
other countries, when they tried to implement important social
changes, the closet was opened and all the specters were released—one
of them was freedom, another was democracy, another ownership,
you know that is one of the issues currently being raised, right?
Chávez is going to do away with freedom, Chávez
is going to do away with democracy, Chávez is going to
do away with private ownership. Like you said, over the last
8 plus years those values have been strengthened. But how can
a more convincing response be given?
President
Chávez
I
think that one must be given, and we are obligated to give it…
Journalist,
José Vicente Rangel
Without
being on the defensive.
President
Chávez
No,
without being on the defensive, of course. It is the right of
the country to be given a clearer response, especially, José
Vicente, when I just told you a few minutes ago that now comes
the socialist Chávez, this could frighten some: Ah! This
is the other Chávez. No, it is the same Chávez,
it is the same project, it has only entered into a new phase.
Now,
as some analysts have said, I believe in a very serious and
just way, I did not arrive here with a how-to booklet under
my arm, as they say, and I am calling on all the country to
build socialism.
I
was just joking with Camero. I recall when he once told me that
he was not worried in the least about land issues because he
has so many cows in Guárico. I said, that’s great,
if you have 100,000 hectares and you have 200,000 head of cattle,
I applaud you. That’s a big production unit. Now I invite
you, I said to Camero, to form an alliance, and this is what
we are planning. Our model of socialism does not exclude private
property. It recognizes it and even dignifies it, placing it
on a pedestal, of what? Of caring, or of recognition of society,
making you a respected proprietor, who doesn’t trample
others and who can coexist and accepts to coexist with a State,
with a constitution, with laws, and with collective communitarian
ownership by producer’s associations, with collective
ownership and social ownership. That is to say, a mixed system
that tries to seek a social balance, economic balance and a
political balance, and even beyond that, territorial balance,
the harmonic development of the land…
I
will end by saying all are invited that in this Venezuela-style
socialism, everyone, politicians, those who are not political,
those of the left, those on the right, the atheists, Catholics,
Christians—let’s build it.
Now,
I have said that it aims to modestly contribute to the quest
for international equilibrium in order to escape this crazy,
uni-polar world, where someone wants to be the leader of the
world, to a world in balance, where there is freedom, respect
of sovereignty, and therefore world peace.
Journalist,
José Vicente Rangel
This
is no indulgent program; this is not a government program...
President
Chávez
I
am here with bat at the ready expecting a fastball...
Journalist,
José Vicente Rangel
I am going to ask you about the government’s failures,
the government’s errors, the topic of corruption, which
I know is something that constantly makes you shudder.
Are you ready?
President
Chávez
Ready.
Journalist,
José Vicente Rangel
What really disturbs you, worries you about the management of
the government, anything?
President
Chávez
I told you that I am permanently dissatisfied,
right? And this dissatisfaction causes anguish sometimes, but
one always tries to convert this into positive energy for new
ideas, for new programs, for new beginnings, and to move forward.
One thing: I mentioned little advancement in agriculture. It’s
an existential obligation and I have worked hard to transform
the model of petroleum dependency. I mean, it cannot be that
the day I leave here the Venezuelan economic model continues
to be exclusively dependent on oil production, almost exclusively
on oil production. But, well, these errors we have committed,
and this dissatisfaction drives me in this new phase.
Another
thing, the issue of corruption that you mentioned. I have always
felt that regarding this issue we are on the offensive. We do
not allow ourselves to be cornered by the discourse of our adversaries
who say that this is the most corrupt government in history—which
is completely false. However it is a deep-rooted problem, a
deep-rooted social problem, it is the degeneration of 100 years
of corruption, to turn a García Márquez phrase.
We have achieved some fleeting victories,
but few advances; it is a social challenge, a national challenge.
Journalist,
José Vicente Rangel
Why
no emergency? With all the heated debate regarding the Enabling
Law, the constitutional reform, to go to the roots as you like
to say, if there is a Consumer Defense Law that is aggressive,
bold, almost draconian, why not do the same with corruption?
President
Chávez
Yes,
I have been thinking about this in the context of the constitutional
reform, the Enabling Law, how to draw swords, truly sharp swords,
see, and fight against the monster that manifests itself in
a thousand ways: but it is a fleeting reflection. Nevertheless,
I tell you José Vicente, I am personally leading an infinite
number of tasks. But I have decided to apply myself more to
the issue of corruption, in a personal and direct way…
But it is a daunting task...
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
There
are people here who accuse you of being against dialogue, the
most anti-dialogue character in the country.
President
Chávez
The
country knows, well a good part of the country knows, that we
exercise power, a new power, not a personal power, not a power
from above, but power with humility, with much humility; and
every day I want to be more humble.
The
deal is that there was a custom, or a mode of dialogue here,
the dialogue of the elites, and I will never allow myself to
be locked into that dialogue. No, I promote and I constantly
participate in –and every day I want to do so more—
the national dialogue, the dialogue of the nation, the dialogue
with the country, the dialogue with everyone and among everyone.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
And
this doesn’t leave out certain interlocutors, with whom
it is worth conversing?
President
Chávez
No
we have no intention of leaving anyone out… Fedecámaras
came in through those doors. How many times did I receive Fedecámaras?
And they came to make presentations, one hour and several hours
listening to them, discussing there at the table, as you know,
at the large table, or at the smaller table, and someone taking
notes…
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Yes,
I remember that April 28, that is 7 days after the coup, you
designated a dialogue commission, you named me coordinator,
all these sectors met, and made a mockery of it.
President
Chávez
They
made a mockery of it.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
They
went out and prepared the oil coup.
President
Chávez
Exactly…
But what I was saying is that there is a manner of dialogue
that must be left to history, the dialogue of the elites.
Fedecámaras
came here and made proposals. But if the government did not
agree to their proposals ¡Ah! Then there is no dialogue.
See, to them dialogue means submission. And a government cannot
subordinate itself to any element of power, because it is not
the only power, there is economic power, media power, power
is manifest in many ways.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Imperial power
President
Chávez
Imperial
power. In any case, we are subordinate to the constitution and
the demands of popular power.
So,
I am prepared for all sectors to be included in a national debate,
in a national dialogue. Right now I invite— again I am
going to take advantage of your show, which I know after today
will be, as it always was, very popular, the best Sunday show;
because there is no Aló President [laughter], because
we would have had to compete, and it would have been a good
match—
But,
listen, on “José Vicente Hoy” here on Televén,
I invite all of the country. Let’s debate socialism, let’s
dialogue. Capitalism is the king of inequality, of lies; so
lets debate about the economy, about policy, about ethics…
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
About
constitutional reform.
President
Chávez
Constitutional
reform. So that all sectors contribute. Especially as it passes
to the second step. The second step, as you know, the Council
of Ministers approved the proposal, and so it went to the National
Assembly.
In
the end I believe that dialogue, but frank, sincere, open dialogue
with no hidden cards, is what is lacking in this country and
in the world.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Do
you see signs of destabilization? There has recently been an
attack on the meat and potatoes of Venezuela, against the stomachs
of Venezuelans. Some attribute it to agitators, even to the
involvement of the CIA in certain activities. Is a coup in the
works? Is a popular insurrection organized, as some say, a repetition
of February 27? And most importantly, is an assassination really
planned? I ask you this with some emphasis because as you know
in Colombia, just the other day, former DAS (Security Department)
Chief Rafael García was detained. Who made the accusation
that resulted in the chief of DAS landing in jail? This has
caused a lot of commotion in Colombia. And Rafael García
initially indicated that DAS paramilitary contacts expect an
assassination attempt on President Chávez.
It seems to me that the specter of assassination
is permanently hovering, no? More so than other options, and
this is a fundamental matter, because if something happens to
the life of a president, and especially that of a man like Chávez,
it results in absolute instability of the country.
President
Chávez
Without a doubt we cannot dismiss
this hypothesis.
A
coup would be extraordinarily difficult at this time, and I
believe for evermore, with this Armed Force we have, each day
more conscious, including the generals. Many of those guys of
February 4 are generals. What emotion it gave me, on February
4, when General Euclides Campos Aponte led his escort, which
included 4 other F-4 participants, and they saluted with: Homeland,
Socialism or Death! Some say that this was an order I gave.
No, that came from those guys’ souls, from their souls,
because they were born in this process.
In
addition we have the Minister of Defense, Baduel, a fortress.
The military sectors meet here nearly every day. The Civil-Military
Union leaders were here last night and the night before, with
the Presidential Commission of Popular Power, the commander
of the Reserve, 200,000 plus reservists, and now they are receiving
LARs, light automatic rifles, because we are distributing Kalashnikov
to the combat units; and the LARs, and it is the armed populace
together with the Armed Forces, which are now Bolivarian.
So,
a coup would be extremely difficult.
Someone
could try something crazy, an individual or small groups, but
it won’t get out of hand.
A
popular insurrection, which has been considered in some places,
would be extremely difficult. I’ll make a comparison between
the situation of February 27 and today. It is a totally different
situation. There is a populace out there that has a government
that serves them, that makes mistakes, but the people also know
that it is a government that belongs to them. Back then the
people had no government, except to stifle them and rob them.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
And
assassination? Some laugh when you speak of assassination. They
want the proof—which is a cadaver.
President
Chávez
Sure
those who laugh are suspects. [laughter] All who laugh are suspect
to me, not of direct participation, no, but of manifesting it
from the deepest corners and dark souls of fascists, without
realizing it. Good God, what would happen here if they killed
me? I even say to my closest men, look, be careful because if
something naturally happens to me, it’s possible that
many people will not believe it and will say that they killed
Chávez…
I
have no doubt that the assassination hypothesis has become more
likely. Who was just sworn in as sub-secretary of state in the
White House? John Negroponte, a professional killer. And they
have assigned special CIA units, real killers, who not only
roam around Venezuela, [but also] Central America, and South
America. Recently a report arrived from Central America, for
example. Posada Carriles’s people are very active in Central
America, and they are looking for contacts in Venezuela. Among
other things they are seeking large quantities of explosives.
Are they perhaps thinking of some kind of car bomb? Or they
look for ground to air missiles with the presidential plane
in mind.
We
are ready, fortunately. Well, with the help of God, our friends
around the world, and the experience our teams have acquired
we are neutralizing them.
In
Colombia, José Vicente, that day [in 2001] when I visited
Pastrana and later the set-up emerged about Diego Serna Alzate,
who was behind me when I was addressing some businessmen. He
even brought me a glass of water before my speech. A month later
he came out claiming to be with the FARC and that he was there
as part of an agreement between Chávez and Marulanda,
and that he was supposed to kill Pastrana that day. No, that
day he was going to kill me. That man was planted there by the
Colombian intelligence, by the extreme right, and surely by
the CIA. Only one detail saved me. We were there— he was
behind me—the Colombian intelligence planted him there,
not us, or better put, it was an error on the part of my security
to permit this man to be behind me— errors, inexperience—now
this could never happen in any part of the world. Now it is
my security behind me or I am not there. Get it?
So,
afterward there were cocktails on the patio. I remember it very
clearly because we investigated it all step by step later. Some
policeman, who was not with the squad on duty, detected a guy
acting suspicious and he spoke to one of our guys, and they
followed him to the bathroom. There was a loaded 9mm pistol
in the bathroom. The guy went to find the pistol of the year.
There they grabbed him and they hauled him to jail. Later he
spouted out this story of how he was going to kill Pastrana—at
my order. No, he was going to kill me that night in Bogotá.
The DAS was behind it without a doubt...
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
The
narco- DAS
President
Chávez
The narco-DAS, the paramilitaries.
How did those paramilitaries get here [2004]? They were also
detected thanks to information from local people, thanks to
our intelligence, to the movement and to the patrols. In fact,
on that day they recommended that I not stay the night in the
Palace because something was going to happen, there were many
reports. I was here until late; then I left. But I was alert
until 5 or 6 in the morning when we figured nothing was going
to happen—false alarm. But the news was very good. Around
200 uniformed paramilitaries had been captured. One was caught
in Barinas. I even saw his face, because I had gone to see my
mother for Mother’s Day. So the garrison general told
me: “Look, last night we captured a guy who was on a bus
heading to San Cristóbal. He had proof of being in the
military. We saw his Colombian Army Reserve ID. He said he came
to Caracas because he was working. He could be one of the paramilitaries.
So, I went to interview him. I spoke to him awhile and of course
he denied everything. Later they brought him to Caracas as one
of the leaders and cruelest killers of that group. The kind
that cuts a person in half with a chainsaw, you see? I saw the
face of one of those who were training to come here to assassinate
me wearing the glorious uniform of the Venezuelan army. How
did they get here? The DAS and the Venezuelan coup-plotters
in the military planted them here, along with a group of traitorous
and fascist civilians like the owner of that land, and many
others who go on nurturing the thesis of assassination.
I
told the Disip chief, the DIM chief (Military Intelligence),
the minister of the interior, and the vice-president to launch
an offensive, because we have been on the defensive regarding
this topic, no? So, it is possible that surprises of this kind
may soon occur. But I will say no more.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
How
has Hugo Chávez changed over these long years of governing,
inhabiting the Palace?
President
Chávez
[laughter]
It’s a prison, really. It’s a prison.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Do you consider yourself to be the same?
President
Chávez
Yes,
yes I am the same. Only like I said 8 years ago, the man and
his circumstances. But me sitting here on this patio could be
the Commander Chávez imprisoned in Yare. But in truth
I am a prisoner. I would like to stand on the corner, drink
a coffee. I would like to go out one Friday to listen to music,
with good friends. I would like to go on March 19 to listen
to the harp in the fiestas of Elorza on the banks of the Arauca.
But I can’t…
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
All
of this is contrary to the idea of re-election.
President
Chávez
Of what?
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Of re-election.
President
Chávez
Of
re-election [laughter].
Rosinés, my poor daughter asked
me one day, because she has it in her head to be a skydiver,
she asked me: Papa since you are the president you can’t
jump. In 2021 can you jump with me? [laughter] Dreaming about
the future.
The
issue of re-election is profoundly democratic, as you well know.
We will propose it to the Assembly and later to the people.
So the people can debate it, discuss it, and say yes or no.
If the people approve it we will have to see if I am still in
condition to launch another campaign in 2012, whether the people
support me or not, etc. Yes, it will be a profoundly democratic
process. But on a personal level, I don’t regret it. I
don’t feel like a victim, or like I’m walking around
here in chains.
I
spoke to you a while ago about the sub-lieutenant Hugo Chávez
on a mountain in Anzoátegui, in an anti-subversive battalion,
back when they killed Jorge Rodríguez, all those years
of terrible repression against the Venezuelan left and against
the people. I went around reading Plejanov, The Role of the
Individual in History, and there it is clearly stated, José
Vicente. I internalized it. One can be chained up in a dungeon,
but if you are conscious of your role in a historic process,
in this case a process of change, if you are conscious of that,
you are free. Therefore I feel perfectly free. I am fulfilling
the mandate of a people; I don’t regret it at all. But
I am still the same “Goofy!” Now a little less “Goofy”
than before. I like to play chapitas [“baseball”
with bottle caps and sticks]. Sometimes we play pelota de goma
[baseball with a rubber ball] until dawn. You never played with
us. You did play bolas criollas [similar to bocce ball].
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
And
I won!
President
Chávez
When
I play I am “Goofy” again. In essence I am still
the same. I am the same surrounded by new circumstances. Of
course I am much more mature. I study a lot. What I try hardest
to do each day is read, study. Right now I am rereading Ché
Guevara and his critique of USSR economic policy, of the new
economic policy, of the Soviet handbook. I am reading Simón
Rodríguez. I read so many books that arrive, old books,
new books, looking for knowledge. Trying to fulfill the journey
as long as God wants.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Thank you very much. I won’t have to wait until 2012 for
another interview?
President
Chávez [laughter]
No, next time, when you want, we will come to the studio
at Televén.
Journalist
José Vicente Rangel
Ok, thank you.
President
Chávez
Thank you José Vicente.
Welcome once again, for the good of Venezuela, “José
Vicente Hoy”.
Thank you.
José Vicente Rangel
is a venezuelan journalist and a politician, he has been presidential
candidate and leader of the MAS party ( Socialist Movement Party).
During President Chavez government, Rangel has been a member
of the goverment, first as Foreign Relations Minister and later,
as Vice President. Petroleumworld not necessarily share these
views.
Editor's
Note: This commentary was originally published by Venezuelanalysis.com,
on Tuesday, Mar 13, and translated for Venezuelanalysis.com
by Dawn Gable. Petroleumworld reprint this article in the interest
of our readers. Petroleumworld reprint this article in the interest
of our readers.
